Jade IDE

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by allistar >> Tue, 1 Oct 2002 1:41:14 GMT

The problem is where you say "anything that goes wrong is either
inside of JADE, which IS Jade Support's worry, or the responsibility
of the tool provider".
How do you know who is responsible? Who does the leg work to work
out where the responsibility lies?

If there was a policy of always going to the tool-provider first
then that would make it less burden on support.

Allistar.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Allistar Melville
Software Developer
Auckland, NEW ZEALAND

Greentree International,
Developer of Greentree Financial Software. ------------------------------------------------------------------

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by vera >> Tue, 1 Oct 2002 5:36:07 GMT

But imagine what an extra burden that would be on Jade support, >having

all sorts of non standard IDE enhancements out there.

But imagine what an extra productivity and less maintenance issues that would mean for Jade developers having all sorts of non standard IDE enhancements. Also imagine how would it feel if we were not at the mercy of Jade Corp. to implement functionality that would be beneficial to us (developers).

Just for illustration, here are some of third-party enhancements tools available for Delphi developers. Some of them use and recommend these tools as the minimum set of tools. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------
* CodeRush - The ultimate in editor enhancements for increasing the productivity of a developer. This includes clipboard history, automatic UML diagram generation from code under the cursor, UML diagrams directly in the source code, syntax highlighting of code blocks and not just code constructs, plus a whole lot more. See
www.eagle-software.com
* CodeSite - Provides an advanced runtime tracing and logging system during development and also for the release of your application.
See www.raize.com
* Raize Components - An excellent and well-designed set of GUI components for enhancing the look and feel of my application. See
www.raize.com
* Systools - Library of routines and data structures such as stacks, queues, dictionaries and trees. See www.turbopower.com
* Sleuth QA Suite - Applications for performing code profiling, memory usage tracing, coverage analysis and automated unit testing. See www.turbopower.com
* DUnit - Provides a framework for the implementation of unit tests for any code developed. Also, includes an application for determining which tests are to be run and tracking the pass or failure of the tests. This framework is based on the orginal JUnit framework developed for Java. See http://sourceforge.net/projects/dunit/

Third-party libraries should include the source code so that developers can use it as learning tools as well as the ability to make any bug fixes as required.

Reasons I like third-party tools are: ---------------------------------------------------
* I am not at the mercy of the compiler vendor to implement functionality that would be beneficial to me.
* Third-party tools are tested by a lot more developers in a variety of different environments that I could not possibly do with my own code.
* I can concentrate on the business logic that is specific to my application
and leave others to specialise in cutting edge libraries and tools that improve my quality and productivity.
* Quality is improved by using thoroughly tested libraries and leaving me to concentrate on testing my code and the integration of the system.
* Greater return on investment with faster development and less maintenance issues.

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by CarlRanson >> Tue, 1 Oct 2002 22:02:55 GMT

At the risk of showing off....Lack of support doesnt *have* to be the thing that stops you developing tools.

For instance, I have a predictive typing tool that ive modified for jade. (ie looks at what you've typed and works out the best matches)

I also have a custom jade->visio link that produces model diagrams, plus a number of integrity/code cross referencing tools.

I agree that its not easy, and you need a bit of Win32 api knowledge, but it is possible.
CR

ps. Im halfway there on a jade code reformatter tool.

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by johnmunro >> Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:40:25 GMT

Here is a copy of an NFS I sent to Jade support a couple days ago:

"Our product is currently in testing. When an exception occurs at the test site, they send me an email containing the exception log, which includes a stack trace showing the code position in each method in the stack.

In order to track the problem down, it is often necessary to look at the code at several of the methods in the stack to find where the problem may be occuring.

It would be nice if there was a Jade dialog (similar to the F4 dialog) which let me copy and paste a method identifier in it, and which would open a method editor window showing that method (at the code position given, if any).

It would obviously need to require that the method identifier be formatted in a particular way, for example Schema::Class::Method(Position), assuming current schema if none was specified.

I would do this myself, but I don't have access to the Jade schema so don't know how to tell Jade to load a method editor window."

Do you think this would be possible to do this myself without Jade exposing at least some of the IDE functions? Please don't take this as an agressive response to your comment, I'd really rather have my feature than argue

John Munro

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Synergist Limited - Home of FileVisionT
The Bioscience Innovation Centre
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The contents of this communication are confidential and are only intended to be read by the addressee. We apologize if you receive this communication in error and ask that you contact Synergist Limited immediately to arrange for its return. The use of any information contained in this communication by an unauthorized person is strictly prohibited. Synergist Limited cannot accept responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of this communication as it is being transmitted over a public network. If you suspect this message may have been intercepted or amended, please inform Synergist Limited.

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by CarlRanson >> Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:05:46 GMT

I don't take it as aggressiveness....i like a challenge.

My initial thoughts on how to achieve what you want are this:

1. Its pretty easy to trap the exception and get the source method, and code position.
2. You can probably work back from the node to find the correct Jade process 3. Directing a jade window to a certain point in the source is a matter of sending it a windows event to reposition the cursor. 4. Getting Jade to open a window with the right source code is the hardest part....it might be possible in one of two ways.
a. Sending key events to the jade window Ctrl-B, an F4 etc.....nasty as it is very context dependant.
b. Sending the correct winndows message to cause jade to open the right windows....simulating the event messages that happen when a menu is clicked..

Tools like Borland's winSpy that let you check out the internal windows structures and messages are invaluable here.

The rest of the details are left as an exercise for the reader.

CR
ps. I didn't see it was easy....just possible.
pps. Of course, like you, my preference would be if there was propper API support for our own tools.

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by johnmunro >> Tue, 1 Oct 2002 9:31:43 GMT

But imagine what an extra burden that would be on Jade support, having all sorts of non standard IDE enhancements out there.

I don't think that would really be a problem, because Jade Support would simply say "contact your third party plugin vendor" a lot. If something went wrong in the IDE and you're running 3rd party plugins, you would first contact the plugin support and second Jade support.

To be honest I'm quite surprised that this is not already possible. When I was first introduced to Jade, someone made the comment that Jade was written in Jade. I thought this was a great idea and had visions of customizing the IDE to fit the way I work.

Jade Support will bear witness to the fact that I have bombarded them with new feature suggestions to do with the IDE, most of which I expect to be ignored because I'm the only person that wants them. Given the opportunity I would be more than happy to make the changes myself, but at present it's not possible.

John Munro

---
Synergist Limited - Home of FileVisionT
The Bioscience Innovation Centre
Cowley Road, Cambridge, UK
CB4 0DS

Telephone: +44 (0) 1223 478200
Fax: +44 (0) 1223 477969
Email: john.munro@filevision.com
Web: http://www.filevision.com

The contents of this communication are confidential and are only intended to be read by the addressee. We apologize if you receive this communication in error and ask that you contact Synergist Limited immediately to arrange for its return. The use of any information contained in this communication by an unauthorized person is strictly prohibited. Synergist Limited cannot accept responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of this communication as it is being transmitted over a public network. If you suspect this message may have been intercepted or amended, please inform Synergist Limited.

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by cdshearer >> Tue, 1 Oct 2002 20:12:43 GMT

<snip>

To be honest I'm quite surprised that this is not already possible. When I was first introduced to Jade, someone made the comment that Jade was written in Jade. I thought this was a great idea and had visions of customizing the IDE to fit the way I work.

Of course this is theoretically possible, but it requires two things of JADE:

1. They lose the "we know best" philosophy and allow other parties to take some control over the development environment.
2. That the underlying code inside JADE is of high enough quality and provides easily understandable and accessable interfaces to allow it to be driven by other tools.

Jade Support will bear witness to the fact that I have bombarded them with new feature suggestions to do with the IDE, most of which I expect to be ignored because I'm the only person that wants them. Given the opportunity I would be more than happy to make the changes myself, but at present it's not possible.

This is amusing. In a presentation given by JADE earlier this year, the comment was made that a couple of years ago, most of the New Feature Suggestions were about the IDE, and that these days, the IDE suggestions have "dried up". The speaker was of the opinion that people are now more satisfied with the IDE. A more cynical view might be that people had given up through lack of response!

Craig

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by dcooper@jade.co.nz >> Wed, 2 Oct 2002 6:46:32 GMT

Wow. This is a passionate thread.

After checking with Craig, it turns out that the presentation he refers to is one I gave in Auckland a few months ago.

My comments in that presentation were in response to a question about the IDE that raised points similar to some of those discussed in this thread. After (hopefully) answering the specific question, I talked about our view of how the *perception* of the IDE has evolved since JADE was launched (ie: I *wasn't* discussing specific NFSs - I certainly don't think IDE NFSs have "dried up" and if I gave that impression, it wasn't intended).

What I mean by "perception" is this. When we launched JADE publicly in 1996, for the next couple of years at least, in nearly all of the technical roadshows/presentations we did to *new* prospects, we could almost rely on issues/objections being raised about the IDE. Very often we always had to bypass this hurdle before we could get to the engine room stuff which is where JADE really brings things to the party. Today, that no longer happens. In the last two years, I cannot remember a presentation to potential new customers where the IDE has been a barrier. And I'm speaking from personal experience here. This year I've done a number of presentations in NZ, Oz and the UK and not once has the IDE been raised as a barrier to someone wanting to go with JADE.

What people want to talk about is stuff like performance/scalability, design (especially for distributed systems, which opens the door to a raft of other things like caching, locking/concurrency, etc), complexity, reusability, language/object model extensions, interoperability, messaging, XML, hardware platforms, operational issues (backup, DR, deployment, hot standby, secondary servers for data warehousing/reporting, etc), Linux, thin client performance, web deployment options... the list goes on. All of these things represent the tough, unglamorous, hard stuff that makes or breaks systems. A number of these are addressed in JADE 6.

So the point I was making in Auckland was that there *has* been a shift in perception/importance of the IDE (either in the market as a whole or because we're now talking to larger/different organisations - probably both). We want to sell more copies of JADE. So when it comes to allocating resource, we need to think about that and listen to what organisations are saying are the hard things. We want to make these things easier. And more often than not today, these things are under the IDE. IDEs have always been fertile ground for religious debate and probably always will be. We must ensure we have a balanced view. Let me state my personal bias and say that if faced with building a significant system, I'd be blissfully happy if my biggest gripe was the IDE - that would be a wonderful problem to have on a large project. Many JADE developers out there feel the same, preferring new/improved core functionality over form. Others will feel strongly about the IDE. Others are in the middle. I think we have all views represented in this discussion

Having said all that, we know the IDE can/should be improved in a number of areas. So let me make a few comments.

1. We are reading this thread. Some good ideas have been discussed and have been noted. I particularly like the idea of editing all methods for a class in a single window and we've had NFSs (both internal and external) for this in the past. This may come along in a planned IDE update *after* JADE 6 (see below). Carl's comments re dockable windows and standardised menus are also good ideas. Both of these are good candidates for the IDE update as well.

2. Early design for the IDE update I mentioned above is already underway. This is taking into account NFSs, comments from discussions like this, as well as things we ourselves want to do. It's scheduled for after JADE 6 as it will contain some significant changes. But it is coming. You may also notice some smaller IDE improvements in the JADE 6 release.

3. The other main point that's been discussed is the provision of an interface to update the meta schema. Regardless of comments that have been made, this is *not* a trivial exercise (especially when you start thinking about things like structural changes to persistent classes with reorg implications, managing the effects of changes in other nodes, etc). I don't intend to debate the technical internals here, you'll just have to take my word for it However, research is underway on what needs to be done to provide such a layer. This is very early days, so we can't promise anything or say yet what capabilities might be exposed. We fully appreciate that this would be a great facility! It just comes down to priorities. An idea that has been proposed is to provide a way for user applications (in schemas unrelated to those you're working on) to be initiated from the IDE (say via customisable toolbar buttons or menus). This would allow non-updating tools to be initiated from the IDE, much like the monitor can be invoked from the IDE toolbar. We'd be interested in what people think about this.

Dean.

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by johnmunro >> Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:37:50 GMT

To a certain extent I think I'm NFS'ing the IDE because there's nothing to complain about in the engine room

John Munro

---
Synergist Limited - Home of FileVisionT
The Bioscience Innovation Centre
Cowley Road, Cambridge, UK
CB4 0DS

Telephone: +44 (0) 1223 478200
Fax: +44 (0) 1223 477969
Email: john.munro@filevision.com
Web: http://www.filevision.com

The contents of this communication are confidential and are only intended to be read by the addressee. We apologize if you receive this communication in error and ask that you contact Synergist Limited immediately to arrange for its return. The use of any information contained in this communication by an unauthorized person is strictly prohibited. Synergist Limited cannot accept responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of this communication as it is being transmitted over a public network. If you suspect this message may have been intercepted or amended, please inform Synergist Limited.

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by cdshearer >> Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:34:19 GMT

Dean

Now that you've refreshed my memory, I agree this IS what you said. Isn't memory a funny thing

Good to see this stuff posted anyway, and that you guys are watching, if not talking!

Craig