Forums

by Simon Barrett >> Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:52:59 GMT

The project I'm working on has 9 schema levels under root (is that a record?). I always want to show inherited and view a superschema - so I have Show Inherited checked in my Browser preferences. But there is no feature to open new windows with anything but the current schema displayed. Viewing global constants / primitive types / opening a new class browser would all be quicker if the last superschema selected was used. Not everyone would want this - so it should be a setting in preferences somewhere.

It would also be nice if Jade could remember the actual Superschema and Show Inherited state for each class browser window when the "Save
Windows on exit" option is used - rather than just re-applying the defaults as is currently the case.

Finally, it would be great if selecting a "blue" method told you which superschema it is in - rather than the current "different schema" message.

Cheers, Simon.

by Simon Barrett >> Thu, 24 Feb 2000 6:54:01 GMT

Further suggestions on multiple schemas that I have either had myself,
or shamelessly call my own following discussion with others:

It would be a good thing if you could open up a class browser (or any sort of editing window - like global constants etc.) in any schema you wanted - with the ability to have many open in different schemas at the same time (in the one developer session). This would stop you having to log in many times in a multi-schema development for editing across schemas. The ability to right-click on any super-schema method and have an option to open it in a new class browser in that schema would be user friendly - rather than having to hunt for the method in a fresh class browser.

A history of the last 30 or so methods that you have selected would be good, working like the current methods browser does. Sort of a web browser feature built into the Jade development environment. Carrying
on with that theme - multiple bookmarks in the same sort of interface would be useful (perhaps using a drag and drop mechanism to add methods to the "bookmarks" window). Of course, the history and bookmarks should be stored persistently for the next time you log in.

Anyone have further suggestions - comments?

Cheers, Simon.

by Carl Ranson >> Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:59:42 GMT

Simon, I agree with you about the history list. This sort of thing is one of the philosophy that "modern" programs are trying to adopt. Take the autocompletion in IE for example.

From my experience I seem to work on 3-6 distinct parts of the code at one time. It would seem like a really good idea to have a combo box at the top of the class tree in the browser that lists the last 10 (say) classes visited. Same thing would apply to the methods list.

On a similar vein - I suggest that reimplementing a method is a pretty common operation so should be easily supported. Perhaps the dialog that opens when you select new method could be a combobox instead of a text box (the kind where the entry can be typed over). The combo box could list the methods that are in the subclasses and not overridden yet (excluding methods on object).

I've also thought that you should have an "reimplement" menu item on the method list when the item isn't implemented in the current class.

Plus they should get rid of the reimplement warning - the developer almost always knows if they are reimplementing - they do it on purpose a hell of a lot more than by accident - and shouldn't have to have this extra step.

The other one I've thought of recently is having a jump to definition option for just about everything. The scenario was that I was working on a method and checked the value of a global constant. I needed to change the value of the constant so I had to open the constants browser and find the category, then edit the constant.

It would have been much nicer to be able to click "Go to definition" and have the globalconstant browser opened with the constant already selected.

Ok, so we're only talking about 20 seconds of my time but this is the sort of thing that makes the difference between a mediocre interface and a great one.

Is the interface standing in the way of your task, simply allowing it, or actively helping?

Does anyone else have some observations on their work habits that might lead to new interface ideas?

CR

by Carl Ranson >> Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:14:06 GMT

Some further thoughts on this.

The other one I've thought of recently is having a jump to definition option for just about everything. The scenario was that I was working on a method and checked the value of a global constant. I needed to change the value of the constant so I had to open the constants browser and find the category, then edit the constant.

It would have been much nicer to be able to click "Go to definition" and have the globalconstant browser opened with the constant already selected.

There seems to be an idea in Jade of "View Definition" and "Edit Definition" although it is very inconsistent and loosly implemented.

For instance F11 & F12 in the editor. F11 is mostly a view definition key (when used on a local variable, constant or reference) which gives you a popup window with most of the information.
F12 sort of acts as an edit definition key - in a method it brings up an edit window for instance.

The mouse also uses this idiom. Click on a property and see its definition, double click to edit.

I think these would be a much more workable concept if they were standardised across the product.
eg
F11 on a method name in editor shows popup with method signature
F12 on a method name opens method source in editor.
F11 on a variable shows variables info (already works)
F12 on a variable opens the variable for editing (same as finding the name in the list and double clicking )
F11 on a global constant shows its definition.
F12 on a global constant opens globals browser and edits the definition. F11 on a class name shows its definition (may be too much to show - public interface perhaps)
F12 opens the class in another browser window

Jade already seems to store the required meta-data to do this.

etc...

Anyone agree/disagree? Comments from plant?

CR

by Craig Shearer >> Fri, 25 Feb 2000 3:46:11 GMT

I agree totally with your suggestions.

Funny thing with this newsgroup - most of the suggestions seem to be about making JADE more useable, not about adding extra features as such. It seems that JADE has plenty of features now, although without a doubt, there are still some major areas which could improve the product's penetration.

Developers, in particular, seem to dismiss the idea that usability of the product is all that important, but there are plenty of frustrated users out there. I have just finished reading Alan Cooper's excellent book: The Inmates are Running the Asylm. This book and his previous work - About Face, should be required reading for anyone developing user interfaces, and the JADE plant in particular. I believe that it just goes to show that even developers aren't necessarily good at developing interfaces that other developers find usable. Imagine what ordinary non-developer users of software think!

The problem, as I see it, is that the usability won't be improved with a minor tweak here and there. What is required is somebody skilled in "Interaction Design" (a term that Alan Cooper uses) to design the entire user interface.

Just as an example, think about the number of dialog boxes that popup when you're trying to do something. These are like obstacles in the road that need to be avoided in order to drive past - they simply get in your way, and most of the time, ask questions to which the answer is obvious.

Well, that's the end of my rant for now!

Craig.

by Craig Shearer >> Fri, 25 Feb 2000 3:48:09 GMT

Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention is that there is an excellent site on User Interface design at:

http://www.iarchitect.com

In particular, have a look at the review of Apple's new QuickTime player. Looks very similar to a JUICEd JADE application - there are many comments which could be applied to some of the systems I've seen.

Craig.

by Sean Clements >> Fri, 10 Mar 2000 0:18:41 GMT

Message to Skoda drivers.

The information shown in the interface Hall of Shame by Brian C. Hayes has to be taken with a pinch of salt. He is a well known graphics luddite who completely misses the point of the Apple quicktime player. His information is old news. He is happy to drive Skodas.

For years User Interface designers have watched Apple for cues to the future of User Interface design. Apple took the original ground work done at Xerox PARC and refined it to create the Macintosh OS interface which has led other products such as Win95/98/NT to be what they are today. This trend continues.

The Apple Quicktime player has created a storm of interest. There were 12 million downloads for it in the first 120 days after it was released! As well as usable, people now want new, fresh and exiting looking software. This trend is being driven by the internet which has gone from being purely text and icon based (observe Brian C. Hayes graphically challenged website) to being a full sensory experience. With the release of the new OS X Apple have embraced this concept and are driving the look and feel concept to all new heights.

With JADE and its JUICE features we have the tool to create systems which is not only easier to use and more enjoyable to use but customisable as well. These systems can be true 21st Century systems delivered with grey & blue livery (to keep the traditionalists happy) and also with choices of more exiting clothing (for example see what is hip at the moment http://www.apple.com/macosx/ ).

The challenge is to think Beemer not Skoda.

Sean

by Craig Shearer >> Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:09:11 GMT

Brian C. Hayes might well be a "graphics luddite" but if you read his review of the Apple Quicktime player, he makes quite a number of very valid points about the user-interface design. It may look pretty, but it has some serious deficiencies. From memory, the ones that stick in my mind were the silly volume control "knob" that users have to manipulate almost physically with their mouse, and also the slide out drawers that don't work properly, and are constrained by an overly "physical world" implementation.

Looking good does not equate to usable, any more that 12 million downloads of a piece of software means that that software is usable.

What I'm saying is that we need to focus on making software usable before we make it pretty. I'd much rather have an ugly usable application and a pretty unusable one. Of course having both is the best outcome.

From what I have seen so far, in JADE and JUICE we have the POTENTIAL to create great looking usable systems.

Craig.

PS - I don't drive a skoda! (and I won't stand for comments from any of my colleagues as to what sort of car I do drive either!)

by Wilfred Verkley >> Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:13:28 GMT

What I'm saying is that we need to focus on making software usable before we make it pretty. I'd much rather have an ugly usable application and a pretty unusable one. Of course having both is the best outcome.

From what I have seen so far, in JADE and JUICE we have the POTENTIAL to create great looking usable systems.

The other problem with a tools like JUICE (or doing it the manual way, and as us non-cardinal plebs are forced to do it), it that it encourages non-standard user interfaces. One of the main advantages of Windows & MacOS is that it forced developers to adopt common aproaches to user interface look & feel. Would you want all the different applications you use every day to all have a different color schemes, be covered with logos, have different styles of buttons and controls, and all work in different ways?

Craig.

PS - I don't drive a skoda! (and I won't stand for comments from any of my colleagues as to what sort of car I do drive either!)

(Thats just asking for it). Craig drives New Zealands smallest car, a tiny little Daihatsu Niva (except when the kids lose in their toybox).

by Craig Shearer >> Sun, 12 Mar 2000 23:08:52 GMT

Correction - it's a Mira!