Forums

by Don Rae >> Wed, 18 Apr 2001 5:56:37 GMT

Feedback from users has identified a difficulty of finding information in these newsgroups. We are considering replacing the NNTP interface to the JADE Newsgroups with a set of web-based bulletin boards.

The interface will be functionally similar to the existing NNTP newsgroups. Each existing newsgroup will map to an individual board menu where a listbox will present a list of the topics in reverse date order i.e. newest first. The message display page will also contain a hierarchical list and a navigable graphic of all related messages for that topic, and input fields for you to submit a response to the bulletin board or to reply to the message submitter (with an optional file attachment). Unfortunately, the system will not remember which messages you have previously viewed.

The same search functionality as is currently implemented on news.jadeworld.com, i.e a word search with Boolean AND, OR as well as 'sounds like' phonetic matching, will be available to search all bulletin boards, or a selected board. The selected messages may then be viewed using the message display page described above. All messages posted to any particular bulletin board after an entered date/time may also be selected to be viewed in the same way.

All existing archived posts will be transferred into HTML format.

All comments welcome to drae@discoverjade.com

Please provide your feedback before the end of April.

many thanks

Don Rae
Manager - Internet Services
JADE Marketing

by Craig Shearer >> Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:50:30 GMT

Hi Don

I agree that searching is very difficult using NNTP newsgroups. However, I'm skeptical that a web-based message board is going to be as usable as NNTP news is. What we have at the moment is great, but perhaps you just need to build some searching and archiving facility available via the web, similar to deja-news. I'd hate to lose what we currently have.

Craig.

by David Mitchell >> Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:19:46 GMT

I'd agree with Craig that it would not be as usable as NNTP, but a deja-news style search would be quite useful. You mention, Don, that we would not be able to see which messages we had and hadn't read as easily. I find this really useful in the NNTP version since I can see at a glance if there are any new posts.

David

by John Porter >> Thu, 19 Apr 2001 0:15:15 GMT

Consider this another vote in agreement with David and Craig - keep nntp but maybe add a web archive with search. Like Graeme, I might be tempted not to bother if it goes web-based only.

Cheers,
John P

by Graeme Joyce >> Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:11:27 GMT

Don

I agree with Craig.....in my experience web based message boards are too slow and limited in function to be useable on a regular basis. I find the newsgroups very useful as they are...if I had to use a web interface to access them I might not bother. Without an indication if there are any new messages, and being able to easily see which messages are unread, the process becomes too inefficient.

In newsgroups like these ones, where messages live forever and the number of messages is small, searching works well enough. It requires a bit of setting up of your newsreader, and I guess being on a local network connection to the server helps if you want to resynch an entire group, but it can be done.

I definitely wouldn't want to give up my newsreader's functionality and speed just to gain easier searching. If you could add web based archive/search to what we have now, that would be a step forward and might keep everyone happy.

Another perspective - I guess you've considered the importance of catering for the people who post here? Without their contributions a newsgroup is no good to anyone, no matter how easy it is to search, and using the web might be a disincentive to some. As with email - it can be done via the web, but its generally preferable to do it using a purpose built client.

Graeme

by Peter Fitchett >> Thu, 19 Apr 2001 2:16:02 GMT

I find it interesting that everyone is immediately saying to keep the status quo. There are obviously reasons for suggesting a change, - it did not just come out of thin air for the sake of it. I am well aware of what is currently done with NNTP newsgroups, with using generalised mail programs as browsers, and with using specialised newsgroup readers. I have also experienced my share of html-based newsgroups, and I would be in the first group of people to declare some as attrocious. This does not mean that all html-based services have to be that bad.

What we need to consider are what functions are needed/wanted/desired, and what are the relative priorities. Then we look at the technologies available, and see if we can find a match. Our objective should be to provide a good solution for as many as possible, not to remain welded to some particular current way of doing things. It is not anyones intention (I hope) to thrust some unsatisfactory solution upon anyone.

Peter

by Craig Shearer >> Thu, 19 Apr 2001 3:41:54 GMT

yeah, but...

it's already been stated that we'd lose the ability to record what messages we'd already read. Given this is one of the best features of NNTP newsgroups, it would be a real pain to lose this!

Craig.

by Peter Fitchett >> Thu, 19 Apr 2001 5:20:52 GMT

Yes, I hear that Don has already received the message that that point would need to be addressed if a change was to be made.

Peter

by Don Rae >> Thu, 19 Apr 2001 6:14:37 GMT

Thanks for all your comments.

May I reassure you all that we will not impose something that is unwanted; our purpose is to enhance, not reduce!

Carl Ranson gave me a perfect summary of our objectives:

<SNIP>

People read the nntp newsgroup to keep up with what people are doing, to help others when possible, and to be able to ask questions to a large group of experts.

The goal you're trying to address, is "I want to do X, I should search the jade newsgroup to see if it's already been discussed". A web based searcher would be good for this.

</SNIP>

So, in addition to the visible posts, I have received some direct feedback which I summarise simply as below:

- Keep NNTP as is
- Make a web-searchable archive

I wonder (condition: we need to find a way to show read/unread threads/messages) if a dual interface may be possible so that those who prefer NNTP can interface that way, and those who prefer HTTP can use that means.

Conceptually, I also wonder about using cookies and board/thread IDs to get read/unread functionality, but this would be browser-cache dependent. Any bright ideas, gratefully received.

And is it stating the obvious that the feedback has come from newsgroup devotees, so maybe the other side of the equation isn't so well voiced?

I would like to satisfy all our communities so at worst case I think we implement a web-searchable archive of posts, at best a dual interface a la deja-news (or Google these days)

Thanks again for the feedback, it's invaluable

regards

Don Rae
drae@discoverjade.com

by krull >> Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:54:26 GMT

Hi Don,

Good summary, I was going to send you feedback in private but the concerns and suggestions I had have been adequately covered by the early posters and your summary. I am pleased you came up with a 'dual-interface' suggestion; I was going to throw that into the mix as a possible 'best of both worlds' solution that should not involve a lot of additional development effort over that required for a suitable web-based ng replacement.

I wonder (condition: we need to find a way to show read/unread threads/messages) if a dual interface may be possible so that those who prefer NNTP can interface that way, and those who prefer HTTP can use that means.

Good idea and not too hard to do. A web searchable archive is already part-way there; just add the web posting capability and let the web posting cause an automatic post to the relevant JADE ng.

Conceptually, I also wonder about using cookies and board/thread IDs to get read/unread functionality, but this would be browser cache dependent. Any bright ideas, gratefully received.

Yes, but .... if you solve this primary concern you still don't necessarily have a good replacement for News Groups even if you come up with an all 'singing and dancing', fully featured web interface that satisfies every conceivable requirement ...... why ? It comes down to convenience, daily routine and typical internet usage patterns.

Here is a suggestion to solicit more specific feedback - how about running a multiple-choice style survey with questions such as current usage (what, how often) e.g. JADE ng .vs. usenet .vs. www general, expected usage, what you would like to see, news readers/ browsers used etc. etc. Perhaps Don could construct a small questionaire post it here, e-mail it out to the JADE developer community, (or set up a voting form on the JADE web site), collect responses, post a summary of responses and most importantly use it as valuable feedback.

And is it stating the obvious that the feedback has come from newsgroup devotees, so maybe the other side of the equation isn't so well voiced?

Ah yes, but are the silent majority lurkers or posters? A 'Straw Poll' might provide some insight since often people are more willing to reply to specific questions if it might be in their interest to do so.